Having read what you have to say about your childhood I can say that it is very similar to my own past experience as a child. I too had to watch my mother do things, mainly to myself, that were beyond the normal chastisement towards a child.
From my own experience and also from what I have seen of others experiences in such matters I do not for one second believe that the answer is to delve into the past and recall the memories as if the answers lay in that direction. I do not encourage anyone to uncover memories that were anyway based upon the idea that they were belonging to someone or that they happened to someone.
As long as we remain entertaining the idea that working through memories is the way forward we will be continually going backward and the mind will eventually create new false memories of what took place, it is the play of analysis.
The answer is as I have stated from the first time that we met. The energy that arises prior to the appearance of the memory is what is important and this is the ONLY way to go ahead with the removal of the effects of such past experiences.
One does not have memories ALL the time but if when they arise one jumps into play with them then they are lengthened and reinforced and their continuation is guaranteed so the answer is to simply remain at the level of the sensation prior to the mental stories arising from the sensation.
I say simply but of course initially it is not simple and so it requires a trust that this is the way to go. This trust gives way to a kind of knowing which at a later date gives rise to a higher understanding of how things have moved in the correct direction as the mental stories have dropped away and the sensations also have greatly lessened.
What we put our attention on is fed by our attention. Our attention is the first activity that arises from the No-Thingness of Being and it therefore creates what it intends to find in what it is seeking into. This means that any story we put our attention on brings more of that story into play and not less of it.
I have met many people who have been in psychiatric “care”, and also know many who have turned to psychologists for help, which is a step in a better direction as far as I am concerned, but have never seen a result that could be said to have brought them to a place of natural balance. There were always residues remaining after analysis and in the case of medication and psychiatry all the problems later resurfaced.
The first thing that is required is that one realizes that no one can undo the knot of confusion for you and also that you yourself cannot do it by any method. Staying with the sensation prior to it appearing as a mental story, that then reinforces the story endlessly, is the only way through the maze of mindstuff. This implies doing absolutely NOTHING, allowing things to be as they are and noting what is arising without being drawn into the many patterns of avoidance which the mind has created to get away from the sensations.
These sensations are the doorway THROUGH and beyond the jungle of the mental AND the feelings.
These things belong to a mind that has become very confused due to bad programming from people who themselves were badly programmed by people who themselves were etc etc etc
When I found out what my mothers childhood was like, many years after the effect she had had on me had subsided, I felt only sadness towards her for what she had been through. She felt this and acknowledged that in her new connection with me, I had not seen her for twenty six years. Our new relationship was fresh and open and left us free in one another’s company to be ourselves.
So as always I will repeat STAY WITH THE FEELING!
The going into of the story serves absolutely no purpose in removing the problem, which is the stories themselves. Remaining at the level of the feelings with intention to get them to go in a particular direction is of no use either, as this intention will be coming from the problematic mind play anyway.
Reread this if necessary over and over until you see clearly what is being stated here.
This is NOT new information about how to solve a problem of the mind but information that has one simple message in it.
Problems cannot be solved, they disappear when they DIS-solve, nothing of them then remains.
The mind has developed many strategies to avoid touching the sensations that arise prior to the mental stories and so these patterns of avoidance will be present but if the attention remains on the natural unfolding of the sensations and not moved by the sensations patterns then they will drop away.
When this takes place there will be nothing, no mental activity and no feeling activity and in that there is freedom, freedom from the original problem, the idea that one is a person.
You and I and all other beings are not what we believe ourselves to be, we are this that remains when all that can be classified as personal has dropped away.
We are No-thing, Emptiness, impersonal and free.
This is the way home, there is no other door.
May you recognize what is written here and pass through this hinge-less door to the place that you have never actually left.
With much Love
Avasa
What a wonderful post! Thank you
If you found it in any way useful I am happy.
It is an appearance in your dream of Life so the thank you is all yours
Much Love avasa
A doorway through and beyond the jungle happens to be very useful indeed !
Love Massimo
It is so simple huh? LOL
Too simple and too obvious maybe for the complexity of seeking.
For those who are ready to be simple, to be nobody, it is already open wide.
Much Love Avasa
Dear friend Avasa
It is not’ an art (that is to say a natural tendency) that must re-learned or remembered, or a not-art that must be de-learned?…. I dont believe that the ” to stay with the feeling” with totality can begin to happen in a person just because one speaks about it to that person. … Many of us lthat explore the inner universe since a long time – me first – we have been finding difficult to perceive what terrorize us completely, and for sure we cannot think to be able “to feel” it 100%, immediatly… Peter Lavine explored a lot this, in its method of resolution of the traumas, that does not require at all that we go in the stories, but it is based on the remaning on the feelings. Using a way of attention and perception through the body, taking force from everything that is perceived or remembered as good or healthy in oneself and felt in the body in the present moment, starting from a state “sourced”, in order words a state in which the person leans on feelings that inspire or remember trust, then is possible step after step to perceive the inconveniences in the body, letting the negative memories run away the true or the false ones, then the post traumatic stress that gives place to the fake memories, and then to leave the self healing happen naturally. …
In presence of an illuminated, this happens more easily, because for resonance he or she represents an important resource of trust in the process. … But it is something that it needs to be re-known, known step for step again, it cannot happen automatically only because “we decide” that from now we will do it, because this creates an ego-expectation on itself, that it is really misleading. ..
As far as concerns me, seen that a trauma is what comes perceived like “too strong- too unexpected – too much soon”, the ideal that a “normal” person is able to feel ALL together the quantity of energy that is contained In a traumatic nucleus hold by an ego image is simply too much, and it gives place to frustration or new spiritual believes, a new ego that then now “hopes” or believes that a day will be able “feel all that-all together”….
And the traumas are an of the most powerful forms of identification that give place to the creation of the idea of a substantial ego, to the creation of the personality dominating… According to me it would be very effective for all those who read you, to remember also than all what normally we want to avoid for fear or conditioning, is able to be heard “a piece at the time” starting from a a state of trust and connection with “the source” or what remembers it, without so create expectations and disenchantments respect a”fateful ideal capacity to feel all here and now” that in a lot of researchers it is created in an attempt to imitatate who already it is awakened or illuminated. …
So I appreciate very much every time that you invited us to “to stay with the feeling”, but it comes me also to say that is something that goes accompanied step by step, like a rehabilitation, with an invitation to serve of adequate tools and not only thanks to a handbook that says that “the only thing is possible to do is staying with the sensation” … Otherwise for who hase huge pockets of stress or freezed muscolar post traumatic stress (90% of us if not the 99%), the hypothesis of allowing a healing remains a dream, dont you believe?
Reply To Harsil.
Harshil
When such things are stated they are stated with words and as words are based on the dualistic way of seeing life, we do not yet have a language that speaks from the first person singular to the same, it seems therefore that there is someone giving instructions to another someone on what that imagined someone can or cannot do to be free of the sense of being someone.
When something therefore is written one needs to see the falsity of duality and read it from another perspective.
What was written does not offer a solution to someone, this is stated in what was written. It is simple a statement of what takes place before the moment that the “someone” concept dissolves. There is nothing that someone can do with this kind of information but it is nevertheless that way it is before the mental AND the feelings drop away to reveal what is always present.
So this information is in one way absolutely useless, as no one can make use of it. It does however point out what will be the case in that moment of dissolution and somehow knowing this beforehand changes the perspective of that moment from fear to curiosity, the former reinforces the “ME” concept and the later goes beyond it.
Yes I agree with you it is approached piece by piece, bit by bit, but all of this approaching is happening and is not done by anyone. In therapy there is the idea that there is someone who can do something to remove the illusion of someone and for this reason it was stated that therapy does NOT work. Life is not therapy, it is not rehearsed and cannot be repeated, it is not being lived by someone for life lives these forms not an imagined someone.
Any deliberate attempt with the intention of getting anywhere through any approach using a fixed method cannot therefore succeed in the dropping away of the imagined person. The dropping away of that concept happens as part of the flow of life without personal intention for it to do so. Even doing therapy is an activity of life as much as drinking a cup of tea or enjoying a joke, or going fishing as in my case,but it does not lead to the moment of dissolution of the person.
Words often when used in the only way that they can be conjure up the notion that they are instructions to someone given by someone but as words are all there are, unless one is present in the correct situation, such writtings as was written give the impression of being instructions. When written from by no one from nothingness they are simply written and the outcome as response or reaction are witnessed also from the same place where they arose from, Emptiness.
The Divine Lila is all a pretence of the One who has self hypnotised itself into believing that there is someone where in Truth there is absolutely Nothing.
Therapy cannot bring an imagined someone to dissolve itself, which is the intention of therapy, as it reinforces the concept of somebody doing something every step of the way. When it is seen that there is no one what further use would use activities be?
You have been in therapy for many years now and if you are honest you will have to admit that you are still lost in the belief that you are getting somewhere when in fact all of that activity has done nothing other than constantly readjustment the person concept. None of that indicates that you are any closer to the dropping away of the illusion of separation, neither are you any further away from it by that having taken place. At the same time there was nothing else that “YOU” could have done LOL
Therapy does NOT result in what you propose that it does and maybe one day you will see this when Life itself brings about the end of the illusion that you are someone who can do something to drop the someone.
With Love Avasa
Thank you Avasa, I appreciate a lot your accurate response, that helps me expand my vision of life, and that of “who is who”, giving me good insights…
I was not trying to advertise therapy, but just suggesting to describe a step by step staying with sensations, as a part of the “forgotten” way of observing and welcoming the natural tendency of the human to self-heal, noticed and suggested also by someone else, in this case Levine in trauma healing….
That’s why i started by using the word “art”, not “method”, just to talk about something which is natural as it is noticed, and that can be “surfed”.
Also, i didn’t mean at all to suggest a “method of dissolution of the person”, or any final solution….
By the way, yes, i’m quite often still lost in the belief that i’m getting somewhere, you are right!
But, isn’t that the nature of “i – the ego” and its habits?
Anyway this “result” of being lost in that belief does not come “after or because” being in therapy since many years, it is there just by itself, as it was before! hah haah ha !!!!…
I”m quite touched by your using me as an example of someone being “in therapy” since many years: normally in Italy if someone says so, it describes a person who goes under supervision of a “therapist” on a very strict calendar, weekly or similar, for very long period of time, trying to solve this and that more or less heavy issue….
I received one or 2 individual sessions in 6-7 years, and for many years i didn’t even attend to a seminar, apart for drum circles, while for sure since 20 years “i” explore my life through different keys and meanings and perspectives, close or less with what you describe as life.
Yes in the last 3 years i am participating in trainings about different approaches into reality, that i like, but with no expectation that through this “someone can do something to drop the someone”.
That doesn’t mean that “i” am clear about what you are talking about in satsangs, or that “i” is free from the illusion or hope of being “helped” by people or masters or methods or whatever…
… So, while it is true that i am not enlightened or awakened or similar, it is also true that those sentences about therapy are not belonging to me more than to any other human who is not enlightened…So i am a bit sorry to be depicted by you as such a “therapeutized subject”, and i wonder from where this mis-information came, but…. what to do???
Thank you again anyway to share your vision, your words for sure touched my intuition as my “ego”, and will work here for sure on a deeper level, in the next days….
Looking forward to hug you.
Love.
hey Harshil your own words ……..”Yes in the last 3 years i am participating in trainings about different approaches into reality,”
What do you think you are approaching?
Since I have known you all that I have seen is that you are trying to get somewhere through various methods and means, changing the words to such words as ART does not change the context in which the action is taking place.
As for your statement about being enlightened versus unenlightened you are ALREADY this that seeks itself, so from where you are seen here such terminology has no meaning.
You are me and I am everything and the nothing within which it appears.
I consider you a friend and a sincere person and there is no wish to be more correct than you so do not read what was stated from the idea that this so.
You are still reading what was stated as if there is someone behind all of this when the truth is that it is just happening in exactly the only way that it can. I have seen how you suffer because of this constant seeking that arises and feel that you wish it to end, the words in reply to you come from this wish that arises from that suffering.
Both of these forms are always doing exactly what they do because there is no choice. Here what is stated is what is seen in the knowledge that you are me. Much love Avasa
Dont you believe Harshil that when something is proposed to somebody else one does it for oneself?
Because … Where are the others if not inside oneself?
And which importance can have the fact that you have been not in therapeutical treatment and instead I have been passing all my life into it?
It seems that everybody sooner or later are is seeking to give a sense to what we have been living, to what we live.
And this sense seems to defy us all the time… So we search methods, strategies, therapies… To find a way ” home”.
“Home” as a sense, as peace, well- being.
Avasa points that there is no other way but staying with the sensations, ,and at the same time that one cannot obtain this through a method. It happens, thats it.
It seems absurd, useless to say it…
But if you dont know that a thing can exists, if you dont recognize it even if it is in front if your eyes, like for the Native Americana, the galeons of Colombus…
And Avasa in pointing that before the thought there is something that is untouchable and at the same time consistent, that is the energy of the sensation, makes the attention go in that direction.
And maybe, beyond the fucking fear of the unknown, some curiosity might come up.
I still believe that there is a someone that can do something…. To be ” nobody” feels like magic… O craziness. But something I intuited … And my compass is attracted by it relentlessly…
But… What to do?
The answer is already there: STARE CON LA SENSAZIONE!
Bye to everybody, Vivek
Just keep an eye on that empty compass LOL
Love Avasa
Well, quite a long sharing, nourishing.
In the end I think that is somehow ridiculous what we’re trying to do here and enriching us at the same time.
I mean that until there is the feeling or believe to be someone, therapy or counseling can be helpful to achieve a better life, a more useful ego.
When the identification is extinguished, there is no point anymore in therapy itself, because there is not anymore the person who needed.
But that recognition, awasa you know yourself , is not the result of anything, not even of satsang or staying in the moment, it is just mistery of life that takes its own way, unfolding.
So,when ego si there, it’s useful to seek a better one; when there is not… Enjoy !
Sometimes when I do give counseling, satsang happens and people wake up, more often people are looking to solve their problems and we do that. So, who am I to know what is better for people? I just follow what they need and what happens every session, without really knowing what will take place.
In the end just a wonderful joke. Enjoy which eyes you look at.
Huggingeverybody
Aseem
“So,when ego is there, it’s useful to seek a better one;”
When is it there? what is it? If sought it is never found!
Supporting the idea that there is an ego IS the ego, it is EXACTLY this idea that supports the concept that it exists
Ego DOES NOT EXIST. All action is of the ONE and this One is non-seperate, impersonal.
If it is supported then it appears to exist and one is lost in the illusion of duality regardless of whether or not the ego concept has now become more comfortable.
When it is seen to not exist there is nothing to support its existence or its non-existence. It never existed!
LOL Love avasa
You are right man. In my experience I did live that no one exists, then it went away and the misperception of someone came back. In the last years I just drop out everything realizing nothing can be done, sometimes the I simply swift away and sometimes this feeling to be someone is back again. Onestly I don’t care anymore: whatever it is, it is! So, I just live fully whatever experience comes, nice, bad, right or wrong, at last I can only say that watching, is there all the time.
Because nothing can be done for that final disappearing. So, until someone will be here, why not to evolve that one? Because I also experience it doesn’t exist, but when I experience it exists, doesn’t become real at that level of consciousness?
And last, I’m thinking that somehow ego and the structure of personality must be ready to drop out, you can call it maturity or cristalyzation or evolution according to your culture background. Anyway to decorate ego itself is the best way to get ready.
This is spirituality! What do you think you do with people?
You help them to decorate their ego, until finally it collapses as a false idea. Otherwise everybody will go out from satsang as masters of themselves and we know its not the case.
Love
It is your view that I do things with people
The view here is that there is no me or people , just energy unfolding to nowhere
It sounds like this is maybe what is becoming clear there
You have reached the FUCKIT stage LOL!
Love Avasa
yes, long FUCKIT stage. Love
I’m sorry Avasa, i have to drop the conversation here on FB….I didn’t expect all of this…..I’m feeling too uncomfortable here on this medium of the writing, there are for me too many ripples and misunderstandings in the words, in how i received your words and how i think you received mine, how these were interpreted…Too many concepts i would love to review or refine,in order to find that we might be looking from the same eye, a common language, while i feel hurt because i think i was not understood….So i stop now trying it through words, because what is happening here is already enough ……Fortunately or not depending on the point of view, i also feel hurt because you pointed straight into my pain- not an easy one- , even if you accompained your words with love and understanding…..This hurt i guess is the one which will stay with me deeper, carrying its gifts at the right moment. For now i thank you for your love and friendship, and i tune to something deeper than words, to let it be and felt….Much Love
After the words have created a space the feelings arise and IF ( in this we agree) one is ABLE to stay with the feeling without manipulating it at all one is taken to what is beyond that activity, Emptiness! and one is home. Do not listen to that story that is conjured up through the play of the mind telling that it will take time, it may not.
The verbal finger that pointed to the spot where the pain is was guided from where you are the witness of what takes place in that form
Much Love to you Avasa
Thank you Avasa. Peace.
I agree with Avasa. It happens to stay with the sensation or it happens not to be able to stay with it, unfortunatly we are used to do something to put a patch to that not being able to stay with it, because it is unconfortable to stay in that dis- ease… instead it is in that accepting the dis- ease of ot being able to stay with it that all can allow to everythng to be dissolved in one instant saving years and money in long time therapy hat at times are only superficilly helpful.
Sara
Thank you
Sometimes one is clear enough to see what is stated
Much love Avasa